[Xerte-dev] Re: use of info tag in xwd forms

Mon Mar 11 09:50:49 GMT 2013

...but possibly Tom's idea of a help system built into the community site is a good idea as well, using the model filenames to generate the URLs. You could also auto-generate a stub for the help page based on the properties defined in the xwd?

-----Original Message-----
From: xerte-dev-bounces at lists.nottingham.ac.uk [mailto:xerte-dev-bounces at lists.nottingham.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Julian Tenney
Sent: 11 March 2013 09:29
To: For Xerte technical developers
Subject: [Xerte-dev] Re: use of info tag in xwd forms

I'm going to do something like this: pop the help up in a window somewhere. I think it's better that the help stays in the xwd, then it can be translated etc,

-----Original Message-----
From: xerte-dev-bounces at lists.nottingham.ac.uk [mailto:xerte-dev-bounces at lists.nottingham.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Smith, John
Sent: 10 March 2013 20:20
To: xerte-dev at lists.nottingham.ac.uk
Subject: [Xerte-dev] Re: use of info tag in xwd forms

How about just an icon (?) in the menu, after the name... Click on it and it ajaxes some help in a js popover. The menu xml could then just have a new field added (help_url) for example... If its present add the (?) icon, if its not don't...

Regards

John Smith
Learning Technologist
School of Health and Life Sciences

Sent from Samsung Galaxy SII

Tom Reijnders <reijnders at tor.nl> wrote:

We could use the info tag to provide a one line help, including a link to a wiki page AND we could provide for the same link to the wiki page from the thumbnail area.

We could even automate it. We have a fixed wiki. (Community website), and a fixed link (page name).

Tom

Kemp Johnathan <johnathan.kemp at ntlworld.com> schreef:
What I was thinking requires to things to be available

1. A url within the wiki that takes you to a specific page (which appears possible from the link you have provided) 2. A means in Xerte / XOT to link to that specific page (e.g. in the way I was using the info tag to link to a specific page)

There are two issues at present with using the info tag
a) It can result in some of the xwd fields failing to be displayed
b) It is only available to the Author after they have added the page type, since the link is from the xwd form.

I was thinking that as the wiki expands any contents page that listed all the pages could get very long. So for an author a way of going directly from Xerte / XOT to a specific page type's wiki entry could be very user friendly and helpful.

At present I think we may have a generic help link that could take you to the wiki home page, or we can use the info tag with its current drawbacks.

Kind regards

Johnathan

On 10 March 2013 17:47, Tom Reijnders <reijnders at tor.nl<mailto:reijnders at tor.nl>> wrote:
You can, that's no problem at all:

http://www.xerte.org.uk/wiki/index.php/Template_walkthrough

Tom

Op 10-3-2013 18:10, Kemp Johnathan schreef:
It would be nice if there was a way of accessing the wiki page about a specific Xerte / XOT page type, perhaps before having added that page type to your project. This could then help both with selecting the page type to use as well as assisting the author in the using  of that page.

This is in contrast to just having a generic link to the wiki home page.

Kind regards

Johnathan

On 8 March 2013 13:55, Smith, John <J.J.Smith at gcu.ac.uk<mailto:J.J.Smith at gcu.ac.uk>> wrote:
A wiki…

Regards,

John Smith
Learning Technologist
School of Health & Life Sciences
Glasgow Caledonian University

From: xerte-dev-bounces at lists.nottingham.ac.uk<mailto:xerte-dev-bounces at lists.nottingham.ac.uk> [mailto:xerte-dev-bounces at lists.nottingham.ac.uk<mailto:xerte-dev-bounces at lists.nottingham.ac.uk>] On Behalf Of Julian Tenney
Sent: Friday, March 08, 2013 1:48 PM

To: For Xerte technical developers
Subject: [Xerte-dev] Re: use of info tag in xwd forms

I don’t much like the idea of separate files (pdfs / docs etc) I think it would be better as a central resource on a web site, maybe the community site?

From: xerte-dev-bounces at lists.nottingham.ac.uk<mailto:xerte-dev-bounces at lists.nottingham.ac.uk> [mailto:xerte-dev-bounces at lists.nottingham.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Kemp Johnathan
Sent: 06 March 2013 18:57
To: For Xerte technical developers
Subject: [Xerte-dev] Re: use of info tag in xwd forms

I suppose one alternative would be to set up a wiki, but I am not sure this is the best approach for help documents.

One thought that has just sprung to mind - what about using an ebook editor? I know next to nothing about them but it would seem a possibly logical platform to publish to. I am not sure if this would be the right approach if we only want to create a set of individual files that are each a single publication?

I did a quick google and found an open source wysiwyg editor called sigil. It looks quite powerful, but it appears designed to pull together large numbers of separate files into a single document.

I don't know if there is anyone on the list who is familiar with this stuff and could pass a more informed opinion?

I have to admit, the one thing that concerns me with using Open Office is that someone will go and open up the file in Word and bugger up its formatting :-(

What concerns me about not using Open Office is the possible lack of a familiar, versatile, and easy to use interface for creating the documents.

JK

On 6 March 2013 18:25, Dave Burnett <d_b_burnett at hotmail.com<mailto:d_b_burnett at hotmail.com>> wrote:

Just my personal preference.
Static documents usually lead to version control nightmares.
I still believe in the Java "write once, deliver everywhere" fantasy.
;-)

________________________________
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2013 18:20:51 +0000
From: johnathan.kemp at ntlworld.com<mailto:johnathan.kemp at ntlworld.com>
To: xerte-dev at lists.nottingham.ac.uk<mailto:xerte-dev at lists.nottingham.ac.uk>

Subject: [Xerte-dev] Re: use of info tag in xwd forms Advantage of pdf?

A single file that contains text and graphics and will maintain its format when printed out (some people still like to print things out).

My approach so far has been to author the files in Open Office which will export to pdf. This provides a master file (the Open Office odt) file that is editable, and the pdf export of the odt file that can be published for Author usage.

So whilst at present the file the Author uses is pdf, this is generated from a single, easily edited odt file. Open Office is free, open source, and available in many languages.

I agree with the idea of allowing those with svn access to edit the help files. The current approach fully facilitates that.
Folks with svn access can edit (or make a copy and translate) the odt file and then generate a new pdf file for publication.

I am not sure of the benefit of trying to edit the help documents in a Xerte app. Why try to create a cut down word processor in Xerte, if there is already a fully featured one available for free?

The only downside I see is that each help file consists of two files (rather than one) - the odt source file and the published public accessed pdf file. But this has upsides as well. The odt help file can be edited without affecting the published pdf file, which can be re-published once the editing / updating is completed.

Just my take on things

Johnathan

On 6 March 2013 12:35, Dave Burnett <d_b_burnett at hotmail.com<mailto:d_b_burnett at hotmail.com>> wrote:

Advantage of pdf?

I would bet we get a lot more contribution if it's dynamic.
Maybe something editable in a Xerte app?
Folks with svn access can edit?

> From: J.J.Smith at gcu.ac.uk<mailto:J.J.Smith at gcu.ac.uk>
> To:
> xerte-dev at lists.nottingham.ac.uk<mailto:xerte-dev at lists.nottingham.ac.
> uk>
> Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2013 12:09:21 +0000

> Subject: [Xerte-dev] Re: use of info tag in xwd forms
>
> Sure Tom, I suppose an alternative would be to funnel everything through help/index.php?language=XX&file=YYY and let it decide which to serve up...
>
> I'm having to do similar with the api...
>
> Regards,
>
> John Smith
> Learning Technologist
> School of Health & Life Sciences
> Glasgow Caledonian University
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
> xerte-dev-bounces at lists.nottingham.ac.uk<mailto:xerte-dev-bounces at list
> s.nottingham.ac.uk>
> [mailto:xerte-dev-bounces at lists.nottingham.ac.uk<mailto:xerte-dev-boun
> ces at lists.nottingham.ac.uk>] On Behalf Of Tom Reijnders
> Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2013 11:05 AM
> To: For Xerte technical developers
> Subject: [Xerte-dev] Re: use of info tag in xwd forms
>
> It's not too much work to fall back to English if we need to,
>
> So have a help/<language code> for the help forlder location like we have wizard/<language code> now.
>
>
> The thing I have against mod_rewrites is that it's webserver specific.
>
> So, now we only have to agree on the help file format. .pdf is fine with me...
>
> Tom
>
> Citeren "Smith, John" <J.J.Smith at gcu.ac.uk<mailto:J.J.Smith at gcu.ac.uk>>:
>
> > Why not just append the language code to the URL (new website) and
> > mod rewrite the url. If there is a language file that matches send
> > that, otherwise send the English one...
> >
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > John Smith
> > Learning Technologist
> > School of Health & Life Sciences
> > Glasgow Caledonian University
> >
> > From:
> > xerte-dev-bounces at lists.nottingham.ac.uk<mailto:xerte-dev-bounces at li
> > sts.nottingham.ac.uk>
> > [mailto:xerte-dev-bounces at lists.nottingham.ac.uk<mailto:xerte-dev-bo
> > unces at lists.nottingham.ac.uk>] On Behalf Of Julian Tenney
> > Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2013 10:38 AM
> > To: For Xerte technical developers
> > Subject: [Xerte-dev] Re: use of info tag in xwd forms
> >
> > What about languages? You might want help in several languages. But
> > we can cope with multi lingual wizards, so why not multi lingual help?
> >
> > The form is a bit of a pain because now we have advanced / language
> > options, redrawing the form is a bit of a pain, so thinking
> > differently might be a good idea.
> >
> > From:
> > xerte-dev-bounces at lists.nottingham.ac.uk<mailto:xerte-dev-bounces at li
> > sts.nottingham.ac.uk><mailto:xerte-dev-bounces at lists.nottingham.ac.u
> > k<mailto:xerte-dev-bounces at lists.nottingham.ac.uk>>
> > [mailto:xerte-dev-bounces at lists.nottingham.ac.uk<mailto:xerte-dev-bo
> > unces at lists.nottingham.ac.uk>] On Behalf Of Kemp Johnathan
> > Sent: 06 March 2013 10:02
> > To: For Xerte technical developers
> > Subject: [Xerte-dev] Re: use of info tag in xwd forms
> >
> > Hi Folks,
> >
> > What I would like to be able to achieve is a means of providing a
> > link to a pdf file that the author can access to provide additional
> > information to support the use of the page type. My original need
> > was to support the connector pages and the inventory page with more
> > information about how the page worked and how, in the case of
> > connector pages they could be used in conjunction with other pages.
> > However the help file could provide other stuff such as examples of
> > use or pedagogical information.
> >
> > How that link is made available to the author I don't have a strong
> > view on. It just seemed that the <info> tag already provided the
> > functionality (except for this frustrating glitch). If resolving the
> > glitch was a simple matter then the <info> tag might be a convenient
> > way of doing this without involving much time input. If however the
> > glitch is difficult to pin down then a different approach might be
> > appropriate.
> >
> > By putting the link in the xwd file it keeps everything about the
> > page in one place. However it does have the disadvantage of making
> > it difficult to change the location of the help files.
> >
> > Perhaps an approach that assumed the help file would use the same
> > stem as the model file but have a pdf extension (e.g. quiz.rlm and
> > quiz.pdf), would allow a Xerte or XOT project to define a single
> > folder location for all the help files. The specific help file for a
> > page type would then be accessed by combining the single folder
> > address with the model name and a pdf extension.
> >
> > This would allow help files to be either located on a remote server
> > or on a local server, or even in a desktop Xerte installation folder
> > e.g. Xerte\pages\help\. It would also make it easier to change the
> > locations of the help files as there would be only one path to change.
> >
> > Kind regards
> >
> > Johnathan
> >
> > On 6 March 2013 07:50, Julian Tenney
> > <Julian.Tenney at nottingham.ac.uk<mailto:Julian.Tenney at nottingham.ac.u
> > k><mailto:Julian.Tenney at nottingham.ac.uk<mailto:Julian.Tenney at nottin
> > gham.ac.uk>>>
> > wrote:
> > Maybe we should tackle this differently: rather than trying to
> > display the <info> on the form, why not pop it up in a message or
> > show it somewhere else?
> >
> > From:
> > xerte-dev-bounces at lists.nottingham.ac.uk<mailto:xerte-dev-bounces at li
> > sts.nottingham.ac.uk><mailto:xerte-dev-bounces at lists.nottingham.ac.u
> > k<mailto:xerte-dev-bounces at lists.nottingham.ac.uk>>
> > [mailto:xerte-dev-bounces at lists.nottingham.ac.uk<mailto:xerte-dev-bo
> > unces at lists.nottingham.ac.uk><mailto:xerte-dev-bounces at lists.notting
> > ham.ac.uk<mailto:xerte-dev-bounces at lists.nottingham.ac.uk>>] On
> > Behalf Of Kemp Johnathan
> > Sent: 05 March 2013 17:53
> > To: For Xerte technical developers
> >
> > Subject: [Xerte-dev] Re: use of info tag in xwd forms
> >
> > The most recent version of the desktop would ensure you have the
> > latest version of wizard.swf, but if you can see the Show Language
> > Options I think that should be enough to demonstrate the issue.
> >
> > The "here is the help" text is the text contained in the info tag.
> >
> > If you click in the Show Language Options check box you will see
> > that some additional fields are displayed in the form but that there
> > is an expanse of blank grey form before the "here is the help" text
> > is displayed.
> >
> > If you mouse over the grey area above the "here is the help" text
> > you will see the mouse pointer change as it hovers over where the
> > text entry boxes for the hidden language options are positioned.
> >
> > If you click on the Quiz2 page to open its xwd form the effect is
> > clear as none of the fields are flagged as language options so as
> > soon as the form opens you see that the display of labels and fields
> > ends abruptly and then there is again the grey expanse of blank form
> > before the "here is the help" text is displayed. You have noticed,
> > in your second post that the entry below "single answer wrong" is
> > cut short vertically. There are also more fields below this which
> > are not displaying at all.
> >
> > If you edit the quiz.xwd file in the page002 folder to remove the
> > "info" tag then all the fields defined in the form are displayed
> > correctly. So it is the "info" tag that is causing the display issue.
> >
> > Kind regards
> >
> > Johnathan
> >
> > On 5 March 2013 10:43, Dave Burnett
> > <d_b_burnett at hotmail.com<mailto:d_b_burnett at hotmail.com><mailto:d_b_burnett at hotmail.com<mailto:d_b_burnett at hotmail.com>>> wrote:
> > What version of desktop is required?
> > The only language related object I have showing is "Show Language
> > Options" in the bottom bar.
> >
> > (I do see "Here is the help" in blue near the bottom).
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2013 10:23:23 +0000
> > From:
> > johnathan.kemp at ntlworld.com<mailto:johnathan.kemp at ntlworld.com><mail
> > to:johnathan.kemp at ntlworld.com<mailto:johnathan.kemp at ntlworld.com>>
> > To:
> > xerte-dev at lists.nottingham.ac.uk<mailto:xerte-dev at lists.nottingham.a
> > c.uk><mailto:xerte-dev at lists.nottingham.ac.uk<mailto:xerte-dev at lists
> > .nottingham.ac.uk>>
> > Subject: [Xerte-dev] Re: use of info tag in xwd forms
> >
> > If you include the info tag in an xwd form it can result in the none
> > display of the last entries in the form.
> >
> > The info tag displays at the bottom of the form with a blank area of
> > form above it where the missing fields and field labels should be
> > displayed.
> >
> > If you move the mouse pointer over the blank area of the form then
> > the mouse pointer will change indicating that the fields are there -
> > you just can't see them.
> >
> > The easiest way to explain what is happening is for you to see it
> > for yourself.
> >
> > I have attached a simple demo. The demo is a standard Xerte project
> > (not a "Pages" type project - I have manually set up the xwd links
> > for the pages) in which I have set up two copies of the Quiz page.
> >
> > 1. Open this project in Xerte
> > 2. Double click on the Quiz page to open the xwd form 3. Click on
> > the language tab to display the language fields 4. Scroll down the
> > form - you will see the blank area where the hidden language fields
> > should appear and the blue info comment at the bottom.
> > 5. The language tag is not significant to this issue.
> > 6. Double click on the Quiz2 page, you will see the same effect
> > without the use of the language tag (I deleted them from this pages
> > xwd file) I don't know if the cause is to do with layers or
> > visibility settings. I don't know what happens when the info tag is
> > actioned in the code.
> >
> > I hope this makes the effect clear (if not the cause :-( )
> >
> > Kind regards
> >
> > Johnathan
> >
> >
> >
> > On 5 March 2013 09:40, Julian Tenney
> > <Julian.Tenney at nottingham.ac.uk<mailto:Julian.Tenney at nottingham.ac.u
> > k><mailto:Julian.Tenney at nottingham.ac.uk<mailto:Julian.Tenney at nottin
> > gham.ac.uk>>>
> > wrote:
> >
> > What's the problem in a nutshell?
> >
> >
> >
> > From:
> > xerte-dev-bounces at lists.nottingham.ac.uk<mailto:xerte-dev-bounces at li
> > sts.nottingham.ac.uk><mailto:xerte-dev-bounces at lists.nottingham.ac.u
> > k<mailto:xerte-dev-bounces at lists.nottingham.ac.uk>>
> > [mailto:xerte-dev-bounces at lists.nottingham.ac.uk<mailto:xerte-dev-bo
> > unces at lists.nottingham.ac.uk><mailto:xerte-dev-bounces at lists.notting
> > ham.ac.uk<mailto:xerte-dev-bounces at lists.nottingham.ac.uk>>] On
> > Behalf Of Kemp Johnathan
> > Sent: 04 March 2013 22:18
> > To: Xerte Developers Discussion List
> > Subject: [Xerte-dev] use of info tag in xwd forms
> >
> >
> >
> > On the 4th December I posted to the developer list an issue with the
> > xwd forms relating to the use of the "info" tag.
> >
> >
> >
> > The inclusion of an info tag in the xwd form can result in space
> > being allocated above the info tag for the display of the last few
> > properties in the xwd form definition, but the properties are not
> > visible in the form. You can however confirm their "presence" as the
> > mouse pointer responds to them if moved over the input fields.
> >
> >
> >
> > You can test this out in Xerte (or XOT) by creating a page using one
> > of the Connector page types. The info tag has been used in these
> > pages to link to a pdf help file that is hosted on the Xerte
> > community web site, but the "language" flagged form properties are
> > no longer all editable, due to the presence of the info tag.
> >
> >
> >
> > This is a pity as the info tag could be used to provide a link to an
> > external document that gives the Author useful additional
> > information to assist them in making the best use of that page type.
> > e.g.
> >
> > * Information about what the page is designed to do
> >
> > * Instructions on what the properties in the form are to help in
> > completing the form created by the xwd file;
> >
> > * examples of actual uses of that page type in real projects.
> >
> > * examples of combining this page type with other page types to
> > achieve a particular pedagogical approach
> >
> > * guidance as to how accessible the page is with respect to
> > particular types of user, or what features the page has as optional
> > properties to provide additional accessibility
> >
> > However at present if the "info" tag is used then the ability to
> > edit the language flagged elements of the page is compromised.
> >
> >
> >
> > Is this something that is intended to be addressed before the next
> > release of Xerte / XOT?
> >
> >
> >
> > Sorry to be a nuisance, but it seems such a potentially useful
> > feature it seems a shame not to be able to use it.
> >
> >
> >
> > Kind regards
> >
> >
> >
> > Johnathan
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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> Winner: Times Higher Education’s Widening Participation Initiative of the Year 2009 and Herald Society’s Education Initiative of the Year 2009.
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Glasgow Caledonian University is a registered Scottish charity, number SC021474

Winner: Times Higher Education’s Widening Participation Initiative of the Year 2009 and Herald Society’s Education Initiative of the Year 2009.
http://www.gcu.ac.uk/newsevents/news/bycategory/theuniversity/1/name,6219,en.html

Winner: Times Higher Education’s Outstanding Support for Early Career Researchers of the Year 2010, GCU as a lead with Universities Scotland partners.
http://www.gcu.ac.uk/newsevents/news/bycategory/theuniversity/1/name,15691,en.html

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Fax: 073 5226196

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Glasgow Caledonian University is a registered Scottish charity, number SC021474

Winner: Times Higher Education’s Widening Participation Initiative of the Year 2009 and Herald Society’s Education Initiative of the Year 2009.
http://www.gcu.ac.uk/newsevents/news/bycategory/theuniversity/1/name,6219,en.html

Winner: Times Higher Education’s Outstanding Support for Early Career Researchers of the Year 2010, GCU as a lead with Universities Scotland partners.
http://www.gcu.ac.uk/newsevents/news/bycategory/theuniversity/1/name,15691,en.html
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