[Xerte-dev] Re: HTML5
Tom Reijnders
reijnders at tor.nl
Mon Apr 8 16:30:56 BST 2013
Yes, I'll build something as a prtotype for play and peer review.
If that turns out to work ok I'll help, or I'll implement the other
items as well.
At the omen, I am waiting on a reply from Pat on one of his messages,
because, clearly he has something similar, but different in mind, but I
am sometimes left clueless on his intentions.
Must be something English.
:-)
Op 8-4-2013 14:10, Julian Tenney schreef:
>
> I'm sorry the issue with the messages persists. I did raise it with
> the systems people here, I will raise it again, because it is a major
> PITA.
>
> If learners can choose, they can also choose badly...
>
> leaving that aside for now, shall we do as you suggested then, and
> have a drop down in project properties setting a database flag?
>
> We can still have the two URLs available, so learners can choose if
> they want to...
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: xerte-dev-bounces at lists.nottingham.ac.uk
> [mailto:xerte-dev-bounces at lists.nottingham.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Tom
> Reijnders
> Sent: 08 April 2013 12:37
> To: For Xerte technical developers
> Subject: [Xerte-dev] Re: HTML5
>
> The major reason I dislike that idea, is that it limits my choices as
> an end-user.
>
> Now I can never view a html5 LO with the flash engine.
>
> I agree that in the next 6 - 12 months flash won't be any issue for
> XOT anymore, but why make users choose now.
>
> I tend to try to get to a solution that gives the choice to the end
> user (and there are two of them, the creator, but also the learner)
> So.... I tend to try to give absolutely maximum flexibility to the
> publishers and the consumers.
>
> 1. Give the publishers the right to express their preference (flash or
>
> html5)
>
> 2. Give the learners (at some cost) the ability to choose differently.
>
> I would be willing to help in implementing such a scheme.
>
> Tom
>
> P.S.
>
> I am a bit frustrated in how the mailing list handles these mails.
> The mails come in at absolute unpredictable order, and I got a reply
> on one of my own mails, but my own mail hasn't made it to the list
> yet. Very frustrating when we try to discuss these kinds of major issues.
>
> Op 8-4-2013 12:02, Pat @ Pgogy schreef:
>
> > Almost :)
>
> >
>
> > I think if we made a new Xerte HTML 5 module then we could offer a
> conversion tool to change the template type in the database. But we
> might be able to achieve the same by addin a html5 file to the project
> folder?
>
> >
>
> > So new module for html5 and the interesting concept for conversion -
>
> > see twitter bootstrapping,
>
> >
>
> > Or
>
> >
>
> > Html5 stub file and some code changes
>
> >
>
> > Or
>
> >
>
> > Status quo
>
> >
>
> > Pgogy Webstuff - http://www.pgogywebstuff.com Makers of web things of
>
> > a fair to middling quality
>
> >
>
> > On 8 Apr 2013, at 10:18, Tom Reijnders <reijnders at tor.nl
> <mailto:reijnders at tor.nl>> wrote:
>
> >
>
> >> Although I am not really a fan of database changes, I think in this
>
> >> case it would make much sense to consider this: (as Pat also
>
> >> mentioned if I understood him correctly)
>
> >>
>
> >> 1. Add a field to the templatedetails table indicating whether flash
>
> >> or html5 is the default engine 2. Make all the existing links like
>
> >> play, export, rss, etc. use this field to determine what engine to
>
> >> use 3. Add this toggle to the properties page 4. Add explicit links
>
> >> for html5 AND flash
>
> >>
>
> >> In the end, the current play would do the triage based on default
> values in the DB and capabilities of the requesting platform, and then
> call one of the explicit implementations.
>
> >>
>
> >> No code duplication, no confusion of what will happen in normal
>
> >> circumstances, and total control to the user... :-)
>
> >>
>
> >> Tom
>
> >>
>
> >> Op 8-4-2013 10:59, Julian Tenney schreef:
>
> >>> Reading this carefully backs up my instinct that LOs made in
> Flash, should continue to be delivered in Flash. The issues for
> conversion, as you say, are as likely to be aesthetic as anything
> else, and URLs out in the wild should continue to work as they always
> have done. We shouldn't change that to HTML5, and authors should
> always check content before re-distributing it as HTML5 content. We
> should leave the old URL in the properties panel so people don't get
> stuck unable to find the flash URL if that's what they need. In
> existing LOs, a LO property could force preview to the old flash
> version if required - or perhaps a new property on the LO icon could
> denote a 'new' LO and do preview as HTML5; in its absence preview as
> Flash (because it's old stuff). New stuff should default to HTML5.
>
> >>>
>
> >>> I'm very leery about making this complicated, because we'll end up
> making a big rod for our backs.
>
> >>>
>
> >>>
>
> >>>
>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
>
> >>> From: xerte-dev-bounces at lists.nottingham.ac.uk
> <mailto:xerte-dev-bounces at lists.nottingham.ac.uk>
>
> >>> [mailto:xerte-dev-bounces at lists.nottingham.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Ron
>
> >>> Mitchell
>
> >>> Sent: 04 April 2013 15:17
>
> >>> To: 'For Xerte technical developers'
>
> >>> Subject: [Xerte-dev] Re: HTML5
>
> >>>
>
> >>> Sorry this is going to be a rather long reply but I think it's an
> extremely important topic. There's no right or wrong here but...
>
> >>>
>
> >>> We aren't just talking about new installations we're talking about
> lots of upgrades e.g. all existing organisations upgrading to 2.0. We
> surely shouldn't be saying only use version 2 as a new clean install?
>
> >>>
>
> >>> We also have a few to many model here e.g. the decisions and
> changes made by us and what is a tiny developer community compared
> with tools like Moodle benefits but also impacts many many more users
> and potentially thousands of individual learning objects and pages
> within those learning objects. It isn't realistic for all those users
> to re-check every single page within every single LO that they've
> created and shared previously. At least I'd say it's not in our
> interests to force them to have to do that.
>
> >>>
>
> >>> It isn't just a case of technical compatibility with HTML 5. Fay
> and everyone else involved here has done a great job with the
> conversions and latest developments etc but I know from my own LO's
> and from what other users have said even where page types are
> available for both already, each LO and each page needs checking
> before changing the shared or embedded link to the html 5 version. I
> know html 5 is the future and offers lots of benefits but in many
> cases for existing LO's there would still be a preference to share the
> Flash link as the default and an alternative link to the html 5
> version for mobile consumption. In many cases those LO's will be
> embedded in VLE pages and lots of different places and over time
> tested and refined etc for Flash based delivery including colour
> schemes and other customisations which wouldn't work or apply via HTML 5.
>
> >>>
>
> >>> By only having a single play.php and other links defaulting to
> html 5 even for existing LO's we risk adversely affecting thousands of
> existing LO's and in some cases breaking them. I'll share a simple
> example below after a few more points.
>
> >>>
>
> >>> There's lots more to unpick here and I'm not sure email/mailing
> list is the best format to discuss all this so perhaps a scheduled
> online meeting would be a good idea? In my opinion we need to try to
> differentiate between existing LO's and newly created LO's in version
> 2 without introducing a barrier to upgrading. I wonder if there's a
> way to achieve both by introducing a way to treat new LO's differently
> by default compared with existing LO's ideally under author control
> for each LO?
>
> >>>
>
> >>> e.g. in an install upgraded to version 2 For existing LO's
> play.php and related links play the Flash version by default For new
> LO's play.php and related links play the HTML 5 version by default For
> all LO's there's an optional property that the author can set to
> determine whether HTML 5 or Flash is the default So this isn't
> auto-detection based on browser or device etc but is under author
> control to change defaults. If there's also a method of doing
> index.php?format=flash then fine too but I have real concern about the
> scenario that we haven't had so far where changing play.php to default
> to html 5 for existing LO's in an upgraded install could alter or even
> break all that existing content or at least some pages within each LO.
>
> >>>
>
> >>> Here's a simple example/scenario...
>
> >>>
>
> >>> Let's say Nottingham upgraded their existing install to version 2
> where play.php now defaults all LO's including existing LO's to HTML 5
> How many users, LO's and individual pages would that involve checking?
>
> >>> I really like the range of LO's with very visual title pages that
>
> >>> Julianhas shared previously via the mailing lists etc e.g.
>
> >>> http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/toolkits/play_81
>
> >>> Compare that Flash view with the HTML 5 version
>
> >>> http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/toolkits/play_html5.php?template_id=81
>
> >>> Layout certainly changes
>
> >>> Some browsers e.g. Chrome and Safari on iPad don't show the title
> page images (not sure why that is?) Page 2 has very different font
> size via Flash and HTML 5 - not broken but arguably not a desirable
> change Page 4 appears empty via HTML 5 - so arguably broken I know
> some of these issue may be fixable but how realistic is that for all
> existing LO's? In any case it may take a long time to find and fix
> every issue like this.
>
> >>>
>
> >>> So just in this one example there would be a lot to check and
> remedy if HTML 5 is forced for existing LO's. I know it's not just
> about play.php and may involve jumping through hoops just to avoid
> causing these sorts of problems but that few to many relationship says
> it all I think?
>
> >>>
>
> >>> Just a few thoughts.
>
> >>> Ron
>
> >>>
>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
>
> >>> From: xerte-dev-bounces at lists.nottingham.ac.uk
> <mailto:xerte-dev-bounces at lists.nottingham.ac.uk>
>
> >>> [mailto:xerte-dev-bounces at lists.nottingham.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Fay
>
> >>> Cross
>
> >>> Sent: 04 April 2013 14:06
>
> >>> To: For Xerte technical developers
>
> >>> Subject: [Xerte-dev] Re: HTML5
>
> >>>
>
> >>> I don't have a preference really as long as you can still have a
> link that will force you to the Flash version if that's what you
> want. I think Julian was keen for links out there already to still
> show the same content though (e.g.
> www.nottingham.ac.uk/toolkits/play_560
> <http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/toolkits/play_560> to still go to the
> Flash version). I might be wrong about that though - he's not here
> this week.
>
> >>>
>
> >>>
>
> >>> John - it's textDrawing, chart, customHotspots and inventory that
> use the canvas tag so won't always fully work in older browsers.
> There's already a fallback in there for if audio/video tags aren't
> supported - it will use Flash instead.
>
> >>>
>
> >>>
>
> >>>
>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
>
> >>> From: xerte-dev-bounces at lists.nottingham.ac.uk
> <mailto:xerte-dev-bounces at lists.nottingham.ac.uk>
>
> >>> [mailto:xerte-dev-bounces at lists.nottingham.ac.uk] On Behalf Of
>
> >>> Smith, John
>
> >>> Sent: 04 April 2013 13:52
>
> >>> To: xerte-dev at lists.nottingham.ac.uk
> <mailto:xerte-dev at lists.nottingham.ac.uk>
>
> >>> Subject: [Xerte-dev] Re: HTML5
>
> >>>
>
> >>> I know i'm the new guy here but I agree with Pat.
>
> >>>
>
> >>> Most people will expect a considerable change from a major point
> upgrade and 2.0 was always considered the HTML5 release so i think we
> should make that the focus and the default...
>
> >>>
>
> >>> How about a single index.php file with a format parameter. Those
> still requiring flash can reroute the index and index_html5 to the
> opposites if required and when we have index.php?format=flash to force
> flash on if really required.
>
> >>>
>
> >>> What models only work in flash anyway now, other than the majority
> of the drawing model?
>
> >>>
>
> >>> The only other issue is IE6/7/8 fir mainly the audio/video tags
> but there are some good js libraries that will add in the html5
> specific stuff and perhaps we should resort to using those.
>
> >>>
>
> >>> Regards
>
> >>>
>
> >>> John Smith
>
> >>> Learning Technologist
>
> >>> School of Health and Life Sciences
>
> >>>
>
> >>> Sent from Samsung Galaxy SII
>
> >>>
>
> >>>
>
> >>>
>
> >>> "Pat @ Pgogy" <xerte at pgogywebstuff.com
> <mailto:xerte at pgogywebstuff.com>> wrote:
>
> >>>
>
> >>>
>
> >>> Two works for play and peer, though someone will need to write peer
>
> >>> html5 and so on
>
> >>>
>
> >>> It won't work for rss, syndicate - and it messes with the API ideas
>
> >>>
>
> >>> And a lot of other stuff - embed codes, links - will need to be
> duplicated and the difference explained?
>
> >>>
>
> >>> On 4 Apr 2013, at 10:05, Fay Cross
> <Fay.Cross at nottingham.ac.uk<mailto:Fay.Cross at nottingham.ac.uk
> <mailto:Fay.Cross at nottingham.ac.uk%3cmailto:Fay.Cross at nottingham.ac.uk>>>
> wrote:
>
> >>>
>
> >>> Two. Unless that will cause problems?
>
> >>>
>
> >>> From:
>
> >>>
> xerte-dev-bounces at lists.nottingham.ac.uk<mailto:xerte-dev-bounces at li
> <mailto:xerte-dev-bounces at lists.nottingham.ac.uk%3cmailto:xerte-dev-bounces at li>
>
> >>> sts.nottingham.ac.uk>
>
> >>> [mailto:xerte-dev-bounces at lists.nottingham.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Pat @
>
> >>> Pgogy
>
> >>> Sent: 04 April 2013 09:24
>
> >>> To: For Xerte technical developers
>
> >>> Subject: [Xerte-dev] Re: HTML5
>
> >>>
>
> >>> So are we going with the two urls or the one URL approach?
>
> >>>
>
> >>> Pgogy Webstuff -
>
> >>> http://www.pgogywebstuff.com<http://www.pgogywebstuff.com/
> <http://www.pgogywebstuff.com%3chttp:/www.pgogywebstuff.com/>>
>
> >>> Makers of web things of a fair to middling quality
>
> >>>
>
> >>> On 28 Mar 2013, at 15:04, Tom Reijnders
> <reijnders at tor.nl<mailto:reijnders at tor.nl
> <mailto:reijnders at tor.nl%3cmailto:reijnders at tor.nl>>> wrote:
>
> >>>
>
> >>> Op 28-3-2013 15:37, Julian Tenney schreef:
>
> >>>
>
> >>> Brilliant.
>
> >>>
>
> >>>
>
> >>> 1. Exporting seems to cause people a lot of problems, but I
> guess they do seem to use it (rightly or wrongly). I'd prefer to have
> options to export the various types of zip for either html5 or flash,
> I think. I have no idea how hard this is to do? I'd love to drop this
> functionality because it just seems to cause a lot of unnecessary
> problems, I'm not sure people really need to export content as much as
> they do -- but there are some valid reasons to do it, so I suppose
> we're stuck with it. Tom adapted the original exporting code, would
> this be something that is easy for Tom to look at? Or reassure me that
> I can adapt your code easily to use different paths / folders etc?
>
> >>> I'll look into this. I need to anyways, because of SCORM.
>
> >>>
>
> >>>
>
> >>>
>
> >>>
>
> >>> 2. The play_html5_1234 is a good idea, yes, for consistency.
> On installs where this works, does the play_html5.php?template_id=
> work as well?
>
> >>>
>
> >>> yes the other URL will work as well.
>
> >>>
>
> >>>
>
> >>> 3. Yes, everything should default to the html5 output. Peer
> review needs a new URL as well. CTRL-Click can launch the flash
> version instead from the wizard. I'm not sure we need browser
> detection: people should use the URL they built it for; however, we
> should probably put something in place for older browsers to say
> 'upgrade your browser' or similar? I'm guessing the paths are easy to
> amend in the php?
>
> >>>
>
> >>> What else do we need to look at before we can release this? This
> morning we tentatively agreed to have it all ready for FRIDAY 26th
> APRIL. Do we need a list of open issues that need resolving before the
> release? I'm thinking of the Firefox security thing in particular,
> though it sounds like you're getting close John? Also the thing with
> the buttons staying greyed out that appeared recently? If Tom's SCORM
> work isn't ready by then, I'm not sure it's a big problem?
>
> >>> No, I don't think SCORM is a show stopper (but I'll do my utmost!)
>
> >>>
>
> >>>
>
> >>>
>
> >>> I've made a titanpad here for a list of things to do:
> http://titanpad.com/xottwopointoh. I want to concentrate on finishing
> existing work, rather than starting anything new just now, but please
> add any bugs to it as well, and we'll fix as many as we can.
>
> >>>
>
> >>> An aside, is it worth starting to think about when / where we do
> another AGM? If we do it outside of teaching time, we can do it in
> rooms here at no cost. Maybe sometime in July?
>
> >>>
>
> >>> I'm off next week, but will have some time after that to help out
>
> >>> with getting this finished, Julian
>
> >>>
>
> >>> From:
>
> >>>
> xerte-dev-bounces at lists.nottingham.ac.uk<mailto:xerte-dev-bounces at li
> <mailto:xerte-dev-bounces at lists.nottingham.ac.uk%3cmailto:xerte-dev-bounces at li>
>
> >>> sts.nottingham.ac.uk>
>
> >>> [mailto:xerte-dev-bounces at lists.nottingham.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Fay
>
> >>> Cross
>
> >>> Sent: 27 March 2013 17:17
>
> >>> To: For Xerte technical developers
>
> >>> Subject: [Xerte-dev] HTML5
>
> >>>
>
> >>> Hello all
>
> >>>
>
> >>> As you should know the HTML5 work is nearly complete and there are
> only a couple of page types for me to complete before we can release a
> new version of Toolkits with the HTML5 interface as the default view.
> I have a few things that I could do with some help on before the
> release so if anyone can give me a hand with them or just give your
> opinions it would be much appreciated...
>
> >>>
>
> >>>
>
> >>> 1. Exporting HTML projects:
>
> >>> The files that would need to be in the zip would be more or less
> the same as for the Flash version but using the common_html5 and
> models_html5 folders instead of common/models.
>
> >>>
>
> >>>
>
> >>>
>
> >>> 2. Abbreviated link:
>
> >>> Possibly something Ron can help with as I've noticed it's working
> on his install. Can abbreviated links be made to work e.g.
> www.nottingham.ac.uk/toolkits/play_html5_560<http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/toolkits/play_html5_560
> <http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/toolkits/play_html5_560%3chttp:/www.nottingham.ac.uk/toolkits/play_html5_560>>
> rather than using the full url?
>
> >>>
>
> >>> (Apologies Pat, I think you partly answered this for me previously
>
> >>> but I can't find it)
>
> >>>
>
> >>>
>
> >>> 3. Play / Preview links:
>
> >>>
>
> >>> a. Links in project properties, preview button in workspace
> and preview in wizard need to be updated to go to the HTML5 version.
>
> >>>
>
> >>> b. In the wizard should Ctrl-Click bring up the Flash version
> when clicking normally is changed to HTML5?
>
> >>>
>
> >>> c. Do you think there needs to be some browser detection
> that decides which version people see? The problem I can see with
> this is that if we start adding new features or pages to the HTML5
> version then by sending them to the Flash version instead they may
> miss out on some content. Not many of the page types in the HTML5
> version actually use HTML5 tags if that makes sense -- probably just
> the handful where the canvas tag is used (textDrawing, charts etc.) so
> there might not be many instances where there will be problems if
> you're on an older browser anyway.
>
> >>>
>
> >>>
>
> >>>
>
> >>> 4. Page models:
>
> >>>
>
> >>> a. John -- is the flickr page finished?
>
> >>>
>
> >>> b. Johnathan -- I've emailed you off list about a few queries
> I've got with the connector pages, I hope this is ok -- I didn't want
> to bother everyone else with them
>
> >>>
>
> >>> c. SCORM -- this isn't working at the moment but I can't
> quite remember what's missing. I'll email with more details of what
> help I might need when I've looked back at it
>
> >>>
>
> >>> Thanks
>
> >>> Fay
>
> >>>
>
> >>>
>
> >>>
>
> >>>
>
> >>>
>
> >>>
>
> >>>
>
> >>> _______________________________________________
>
> >>>
>
> >>> Xerte-dev mailing list
>
> >>>
>
> >>>
> Xerte-dev at lists.nottingham.ac.uk<mailto:Xerte-dev at lists.nottingham.a
> <mailto:Xerte-dev at lists.nottingham.ac.uk%3cmailto:Xerte-dev at lists.nottingham.a>
>
> >>> c.uk>
>
> >>>
>
> >>> http://lists.nottingham.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/xerte-dev
>
> >>>
>
> >>>
>
> >>>
>
> >>> --
>
> >>>
>
> >>> --
>
> >>>
>
> >>>
>
> >>>
>
> >>> Tom Reijnders
>
> >>>
>
> >>> TOR Informatica
>
> >>>
>
> >>> Chopinlaan 27
>
> >>>
>
> >>> 5242HM Rosmalen
>
> >>>
>
> >>> Tel: 073 5226191
>
> >>>
>
> >>> Fax: 073 5226196
>
> >>>
>
> >>>
>
> >>>
>
> >>>
>
> >>> _______________________________________________
>
> >>> Xerte-dev mailing list
>
> >>>
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>
> >>> c.uk> http://lists.nottingham.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/xerte-dev
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>
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> >>>
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>
> >>> c.uk> http://lists.nottingham.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/xerte-dev
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> >>>
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> >>>
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> >> --
>
> >> --
>
> >>
>
> >> Tom Reijnders
>
> >> TOR Informatica
>
> >> Chopinlaan 27
>
> >> 5242HM Rosmalen
>
> >> Tel: 073 5226191
>
> >> Fax: 073 5226196
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >> _______________________________________________
>
> >> Xerte-dev mailing list
>
> >> Xerte-dev at lists.nottingham.ac.uk
> <mailto:Xerte-dev at lists.nottingham.ac.uk>
>
> >> http://lists.nottingham.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/xerte-dev
>
> > _______________________________________________
>
> > Xerte-dev mailing list
>
> > Xerte-dev at lists.nottingham.ac.uk
> <mailto:Xerte-dev at lists.nottingham.ac.uk>
>
> > http://lists.nottingham.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/xerte-dev
>
> >
>
> --
>
> --
>
> Tom Reijnders
>
> TOR Informatica
>
> Chopinlaan 27
>
> 5242HM Rosmalen
>
> Tel: 073 5226191
>
> Fax: 073 5226196
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Xerte-dev mailing list
>
> Xerte-dev at lists.nottingham.ac.uk <mailto:Xerte-dev at lists.nottingham.ac.uk>
>
> http://lists.nottingham.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/xerte-dev
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Xerte-dev mailing list
> Xerte-dev at lists.nottingham.ac.uk
> http://lists.nottingham.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/xerte-dev
--
--
Tom Reijnders
TOR Informatica
Chopinlaan 27
5242HM Rosmalen
Tel: 073 5226191
Fax: 073 5226196
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