[Xerte-dev] Re: [Xerte] Re: plain text connector page problem in XOT

Mon Oct 29 19:24:30 GMT 2012

Dave

yes I have been following this thread from the start and long before it I
predicted this particular difficulty when we were previously debating
whether page title or a separate page ID should be used. My stance was that
XOT users see the page titles in the tree and although having a page id
saves broken links due to a subsequently changed page title I could see that
page ID had to be added in addition to what people were familiar with and
wouldn't be intuitive. BUT...

We've had the ability to link between pages/page titles with a bit of
JavaScript for ages but that had to be communicated/learned e.g. not FWS

It's also a bit ironic that we're discussing difficulty with plaintext
connector when that kind of navigation has been possible for ages with a
similar function call in any text area just about any page

For new users in my experience all but the very basic page types involve
some learning

Some never learn some of the page types because they can't learn them
without help

Some learn them via online or human help

None of this is a reason to remove the connectors

As Andrew has more or less also indicated a simple instruction via the
<info> tag should resolve this particular issue with page id use for someone
exploring connectors for themselves

Far more people will learn how to use them via tutorials and/or training or
via the list or community site

In my option this is more about making the help available wherever
appropriate for what is functionality not available before. There are many
many more beginner and intermediate level users who struggle with existing
page types but never even join the list. Not all the page types are as FWS
as we sometimes think. Time has passed and people have learned them with or
without additional help.

Ron

From: xerte-dev-bounces at lists.nottingham.ac.uk
[mailto:xerte-dev-bounces at lists.nottingham.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Dave Burnett
Sent: 29 October 2012 18:48
To: xerte-dev at lists.nottingham.ac.uk
Subject: [Xerte-dev] Re: [Xerte] Re: plain text connector page problem in
XOT

>The authors can quickly learn the features and differences with connectors.

Ron, have you been following this thread from it's start?

An intermediate level user couldn't get a simple text connector to work
without asking the list for help.

Dave

From: ronm at mitchellmedia.co.uk
To: xerte-dev at lists.nottingham.ac.uk
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 18:40:40 +0000
Subject: [Xerte-dev] Re: [Xerte] Re: plain text connector page problem in
XOT

round and round and round we go....

Please don't remove the connector pages. The Scenario connector has already
been commented out and arguably with good reason but the others aren't too
complicated especially once the basics are known.

In my opinion this is being over thought and over complicated. The authors
can quickly learn the features and differences with connectors. 

In practice the learners will be responding to the content and if connectors
are used to provide non-linear navigation they won't care that it's slightly
different to another LO with only linear navigation. It could actually be
far more confusing to them if they find themselves able to navigate back to
a page they hadn't yet seen in a non-linear LO. 

In terms of non-consistent non-familiar navigation it's been possible to
load a custom swf for years losing all the usual navigation and
accessibility and a number of people on the list have clearly customised and
removed some of the standard buttons/options.

The connectors aren't just about navigation between pages in an LO and for
instance the hotpot image connector provides extremely useful functionality
without changing page navigation at all.

In terms of difficult page types to learn most of the connectors are the
same as existing page types with some added options. In my experience
supporting lots of people new to or familiar with XOT the connectors won't
provide a barrier or problem to those who want to achieve the functionality
they provide. Others will simply ignore them just like they do some of the
other page types that have been in place for ages.

Just my somewhat repeated thoughts.

Ron

From: xerte-dev-bounces at lists.nottingham.ac.uk
[mailto:xerte-dev-bounces at lists.nottingham.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Kemp
Johnathan
Sent: 29 October 2012 17:57
To: For Xerte technical developers
Subject: [Xerte-dev] Re: [Xerte] Re: plain text connector page problem in
XOT

What we must avoid is a situation where people try and build content and
then give up because it just doesn't work quite right, and have then
essentially wasted their time. This is an important principle for toolkits.

Then maybe the connector pages should be withdrawn from the XOT release
until we have a common approach to the pages and resolved the navigation
options. There is a danger that the solution implemented may be difficult to
implement with full backward compatibility, or that achieving backward
compatibility will compromise the pages by building in extra functionality
that is not essential to the pages functioning with the new modifications.

However I can't finalise the Connector pages until we reach a consensus and
any engine based features have been implemented.

Kind regards

Johnathan

On 29 October 2012 17:38, Dave Burnett <d_b_burnett at hotmail.com> wrote:

>What XOT app store?

A mythological place where custom templates can be made available for
general use.

>I thought we had reached a point where we were going to provide the project
author with an option to implement an historic back button which would
display a different logo to that of the linear back button.

And I thought the counterpoint was still that it was adding a layer of
complexity inimical to Xerte's design philosophy of KISS.

That's why I was suggesting the alternate availability for those authors who
are sure enough of themselves and their target to be confident of their
effect.

And I stand to be corrected, but I believe Julian has been resistant from
the beginning of including anything in the standard release that is not
completely intuitive to a basic level user, both author and reader.

And from the fact that the navigation issue has now been around the track
quite a number of times without clear resolution indicates, to me at least,
that it is too complex for standard Xerte.

Johnathan, I feel with you, and I am not just saying that.

Julian will attest, as I peppered him questions at the time, that I spent
about 6 solid months building an Authorware to Xerte conversion tool.

Now I too see in black and white that that tool is now pretty much a museum
piece.

:-/

Dave  

  _____  

Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 16:34:23 +0000

From: johnathan.kemp at ntlworld.com
To: xerte-dev at lists.nottingham.ac.uk
Subject: [Xerte-dev] Re: [Xerte] Re: plain text connector page problem in
XOT

What XOT app store?

I thought we had reached a point where we were going to provide the project
author with an option to implement an historic back button which would
display a different logo to that of the linear back button.

Without an historic back button the connector pages are going to be
significantly compromised when used with the intention of setting up routes
through a project.

Kind regards

Johnathan

On 29 October 2012 15:45, Dave Burnett <d_b_burnett at hotmail.com> wrote:

"an historic back button might be made available."

Perhaps this is better left as a bespoke version available from the "XOT app
store"?

Having just put together a custom template, I can see that it is perfect for
the clients intended usage, but would not make much sense as a standard XOT
component.

Dave

  _____  

Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 15:33:58 +0000
From: johnathan.kemp at ntlworld.com
To: xerte-dev at lists.nottingham.ac.uk

Subject: [Xerte-dev] Re: [Xerte] Re: plain text connector page problem in
XOT

With respect to the Connector pages I guess I don't know whether I am coming
or going :-(

Just before you went on leave we have had some discussions regarding
finalising how the navigation options should work and how an historic back
button might be made available.

Today there is discussion about changing the way Page ID usage might work.

I had originally planned to do the following regarding the Connector pages
and then call it a day on rlm development until I could take a look at HTML5
and see if I could get my head around it in a XOT context.

1.	Tidy up the navigation options for the connector pages once a
preferred solution had been agreed
2.	create a quiz connector page;
3.	add  some control to the position of the pop up in the Hotspot Image
Connector
4.	Add support for image display on the Scenario Connector when you
examined a prop

2 is almost done, 3 is done. I have not posted the changes as until 1 is
completed all the models will be subject to change.

Perhaps if we can resolve the current discussions regarding how the
connectors should work I can get the above finished and then leave any
further work to HTML5 versions.

Kind regards

Johnathan

On 29 October 2012 15:12, Julian Tenney <Julian.Tenney at nottingham.ac.uk>
wrote:

And I understand that having put all the work in over the last year, the
current state of the world is frustrating.

I would say that there is still work to do around how we implement the
connectors in the GHTML5 stuff, and how we make them easy to use, and that
the interface works as expected for end users in the various situations.

I think from our point of view it would be helpful if the number of
templates didn't grow massively until we reach that parity point between the
old and the new, but appreciate people will have particular problems to
solve that might need new page types (including us).

I have wondered, aloud at times, about building a new version of a lower
level tool like Xerte, but one that produces HTML5 output. I think it would
be possible to get close. Personally I wouldn't want to support the .rlo
file format by crunching it into HTML5 because there are some serious
shortcomings in that that could be done better, and I'm not everyone grasps
the flow-line thing, but something similar, giving a simple set of
components to use to create content from. If you think about it most of the
xerte icons are now available in HTML5:

<script>
<img>
<p>
<audio>
<video>
<div>

And others can be done quite easily with jquery / jqueryUI components. See
the framework example I put together.

The thing that stops me is I really do not know if anyone would use it. The
lesson from the last seven years is that there really aren't that many
programming content developers out there (it's always surprised me that most
Learning Technologists don't code but there you go). Developers already have
tools. I've come to the conclusion that if you're building tools, you are
not building tools for developers (they already exist), the people who need
tools are the non-techs.

From: xerte-dev-bounces at lists.nottingham.ac.uk
[mailto:xerte-dev-bounces at lists.nottingham.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Kemp
Johnathan
Sent: 29 October 2012 14:50

To: For Xerte technical developers

Subject: [Xerte-dev] Re: [Xerte] Re: plain text connector page problem in
XOT

I can understand where you are coming from in this. 

In the absence of any way of using the current .rlm page model files as a
means of defining both for flash and html5 delivery the rlm files are
obsolete and the developer friendliness of the Xerte desktop is history.. 

Given this situation it seems to me that any further work on rlm based pages
is probably a waste of time. 

Does it make sense to work now on improving how the Connector pages work, or
to instead seek to duplicate what we currently have in HTML5? Then once
there is a working set of pages look for potential improvements.

Kind regards

Johnathan

On 29 October 2012 14:18, Julian Tenney <Julian.Tenney at nottingham.ac.uk>
wrote:

[moved from the xerte list]

So here is the problem for us. We (Nottingham) don't have any interest in
supporting, or developing standalone Xerte anymore. From our point of view,
very few people use it, and it's flash, and is dead or dying.

I cannot justify putting our time and effort myself into supporting the old
stuff, and I think that if we try and keep the two things running we are
just going to make a big mess. At the very least, it makes problems much
more complicated. At some point, we need to let the standalone Xerte die,
and I'm at that point. The future for me is with toolkits, we saw that at
the event a couple of weeks ago when you asked 'how many people use
standalone xerte?'. It was hardly any, and they are almost all using
templates anyway, and could do that on an xampp install of toolkits.

Debate it or not, Nottingham's position is not to put any time into the
standalone / flash stuff anymore. 

From: xerte-bounces at lists.nottingham.ac.uk
[mailto:xerte-bounces at lists.nottingham.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Kemp Johnathan
Sent: 29 October 2012 12:01

To: Xerte discussion list
Subject: [Xerte] Re: plain text connector page problem in XOT

The source of the list of pages in a project is different for Xerte projects
and for XOT or Page Templates projects.

XOT contains the data for all the pages in the project in a single .xml file
so the connector pages access the page ID by

extXML.firstChild.childNodes[i].attributes.pageID

In desktop Xerte pages projects each page has its own separate xml file.
Xerte builds an array rootIcon.pages from which the page data can be
accessed e.g.

rootIcon.pages[i].extXML.firstChild.childNodes[0].attributes.pageID

The building of the array takes place at run time and has not completed by
the time the rootIcon.onInit event is broadcast. So the data is not
available to the xwd file to be able to offer a list of pages.

However in desktop Xerte Julian modified the engine so that on changing the
page title i.e. name attribute in the page's xwd form this value was
transferred to the associated page icon's name attribute written  in the
.rlo file. So in desktop Xerte the source of the page names would have to be
the rlo file.

Is it doable that the engine could be coded so that one solution can work in
the xwd forms for the pages and for the page models, irrespective of them
residing in Xerte or XOT?

Kind regards

Johnathan

Kind regards

Johnathan

On 29 October 2012 11:33, Julian Tenney <Julian.Tenney at nottingham.ac.uk>
wrote:

I can code it, the engine needs to do it, based on that type in .xwd

<attName type="pageList" label="targetPage" .etc.>

Then the wizard needs to build the list based on the data on the tree, and
show the user page titles to choose from. When one is selected it needs to
generate an ID if one doesn't exist on the target page, and then link to
that. I think that would work? I think also the user could screw it up by
changing the ID later and breaking the link: the generated ID would be
targ12398637562 or something like that, it would be better to prompt the
user to create a friendly one if one didn't exist.

From: xerte-bounces at lists.nottingham.ac.uk
[mailto:xerte-bounces at lists.nottingham.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Pat Lockley
Sent: 29 October 2012 10:52

To: Xerte discussion list
Subject: [Xerte] Re: plain text connector page problem in XOT

Strikes me it better to offer a choice of valid options than to try to
validate later on?

No idea how to code it though

Of course you could go crazy and connect to pages in other projects....

On 29 Oct 2012, at 10:43, Julian Tenney <Julian.Tenney at nottingham.ac.uk>
wrote:

Good idea. That would require some work in the engine, and a type in the xwd
file of 'pageList'. For attributes labelled as such, the engine would then
present the drop down, and could generate IDs automagically if they didn't
exist.

From: xerte-bounces at lists.nottingham.ac.uk
[mailto:xerte-bounces at lists.nottingham.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Pat Lockley
Sent: 29 October 2012 10:34
To: Xerte discussion list
Subject: [Xerte] Re: plain text connector page problem in XOT

Why not provide a drop down list of pages?

On 29 Oct 2012, at 10:30, Kemp Johnathan <johnathan.kemp at ntlworld.com>
wrote:

One problem may be that people are failing to locate the documentation that
supports the Connector pages. Which does not surprise me as at the moment
the only place I know they are accessible from is either the help folder of
a desktop Xerte install, or from the SVN.

It should be possible to check for page ID and then for page "title". 

When you say "page title" are you referring to the xml attribute "name" ? 

In desktop Xerte there is both a "name" and a "title" attribute but in XOT
the label "Page Title" is used to refer to the attribute "name". So for
Xerte use which would you want it to be? 

I am concerned that this approach may instead complicate things. By using
only Page IDs for connections projects retain a consistency of approach and
the connections are safe from side effects resulting from the renaming
(retitling) of a page. Page IDs are free from having to do duty as a page
title and so can reflect the logical structure of the connections.

Perhaps an alternative solution is to include an info statement to remind
people to set a page ID for their destination page.

Kind regards

Johnathan

On 29 October 2012 09:35, Julian Tenney <Julian.Tenney at nottingham.ac.uk>
wrote:

People are missing the need to create a page ID? Is that the root cause of
the problem here?

I've wondered if the navigation stuff should use either the page title or
the page ID? I've had feedback from people that the ID makes things too
complicated / is easy to miss etc. If the code looked first for an ID, and
if found, navigated to that, but if not found, it then checked the page
titles, and if found, navigated to that, it would catch both situations?

We have got to keep the 'keep it simple' mantra in mind here. Andy is an
experienced user, and this should be a simple task. This tells me something
could be improved.

From: xerte-bounces at lists.nottingham.ac.uk
[mailto:xerte-bounces at lists.nottingham.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Kemp Johnathan
Sent: 27 October 2012 10:38

To: Xerte discussion list
Subject: [Xerte] Re: plain text connector page problem in XOT

In principle it is possible to add this functionality to any page that has a
text block. 

However this raises the question of when is a connector page not a connector
page. For you could end up potentially with a list of connector pages that
duplicated most of the existing pages. I would be personally inclined to
treat the ability to link from text as in the Plain Text Connector Page as
something that is not really a "Connector Page" if we ever went down the
route of making this facility available to all text blocks. Almost all the
other Connector pages offer facilities to control the navigation options of
the destination page, a feature not offered when making a text based
connection.

I think the concept of connector pages is still in its infancy. There is a
bit of tidying up that I am working with Julian on, to improve the options
regarding navigation and setting navigation for destination pages. Then I
think it will be worth waiting a while and seeing what the take up of the
Connector pages is and getting a feel for how people use them.

There is also the major issue of HTML5. Until I am clearer about the
implications of converting existing Connector pages to HTML5 I am rather
loathe to expand the range of Connector pages available.

Kind regards

Johnathan

On 26 October 2012 16:32, Davidson, Andrew <Andrew.Davidson at warwick.ac.uk>
wrote:

Thanks Johnathan - very helpful. Yes, it was a very simple solution - Dave
showed me that I wasn't inserting a page id where it was needed. Makes sense
now but in the instruction I only could see about copying and pasting text
with the page id - anyway, it's a great addition for Xerte Online Toolkits
and I wonder if it will be possible to add this function to other page types
in XOT such as a page with graphics and text or a page with video and text.

Best

Andy

From: xerte-bounces at lists.nottingham.ac.uk
[mailto:xerte-bounces at lists.nottingham.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Kemp Johnathan
Sent: 26 October 2012 16:27
To: Xerte discussion list

Subject: [Xerte] Re: plain text connector page problem in XOT

You have two ways to use the Page Models in Xerte 2.18 desktop. I hope that
soon we will be able to improve the File / New menu so that all the options
for creating a the different project types are listed there. However
currently...

If you want a page templates type project i.e. a toolkits style project then
do 

  Pages / Create Template Project from Pages.

Add pages in the same way as normal for Page Templates or XOT projects.

If you want to use the new Pages type project that gives full access to the
page models and also the editing environment then do 

Pages / Create New Page Project

Add pages by selecting the "Interface" element in the project tree and then
select the page type that you want to add from the range of page type
folders that you will find off the Pages Menu.

As to how to duplicate the problem that Andrew is experiencing, I am not
sure since I am not sure what the cause of the problem is. It may be as
simple as not having specified a page ID for the destination page.

Kind regards

Johnathan

On 25 October 2012 17:19, Dave Burnett <d_b_burnett at hotmail.com> wrote:

Johnathan, how would one go about recreating Andy's situation in 2.18
desktop?

Thnx,

Dave

Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2012 17:13:52 +0100

From: johnathan.kemp at ntlworld.com

To: xerte at lists.nottingham.ac.uk
Subject: [Xerte] Re: plain text connector page problem in XOT

The link to your project is not much help as I can't access the values you
have entered into the form for the page.

If you take a look at the learning object you should find it has an optional
property of "Add Author Support". Add this attribute to your learning object
and ensure the check box is ticked. Then play your project once more and try
your hyperlink. You should see a message displayed "Page ID: somePageID
could not be found in this project"

Where "somePageID" will be the pageID you have specified in your link.

Then check the destination page to ensure that you have given it an optional
attribute of "Page ID" and that you have set the Page ID attribute to the
value you have used in your link.

That should sort it.

Kind regards

Johnathan

On 25 October 2012 15:34, Davidson, Andrew <Andrew.Davidson at warwick.ac.uk>
wrote:

Hi

I am trying to use the plain text connector page in XOT but for some reason
I can't get the link to work - http://xerte.warwick.ac.uk/play_116

it highlights as a link on page 3 but does not link back to page 2. Here is
the code I entered as a hyperlink                

asfunction:_level0.engine.fnTextCon,page2

any ideas?

Thanks.

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