[Xerte-dev] Re: [Xerte] Re: plain text connector page problem in XOT
Dave Burnett
d_b_burnett at hotmail.com
Mon Oct 29 18:48:05 GMT 2012
>The authors can quickly learn the features and differences with connectors.
Ron, have you been following this thread from it's start?An intermediate level user couldn't get a simple text connector to work without asking the list for help.
Dave
From: ronm at mitchellmedia.co.uk
To: xerte-dev at lists.nottingham.ac.uk
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 18:40:40 +0000
Subject: [Xerte-dev] Re: [Xerte] Re: plain text connector page problem in XOT
round and round and round we go.... Please don't remove the connector pages. The Scenario connector has already been commented out and arguably with good reason but the others aren't too complicated especially once the basics are known. In my opinion this is being over thought and over complicated. The authors can quickly learn the features and differences with connectors. In practice the learners will be responding to the content and if connectors are used to provide non-linear navigation they won't care that it's slightly different to another LO with only linear navigation. It could actually be far more confusing to them if they find themselves able to navigate back to a page they hadn't yet seen in a non-linear LO. In terms of non-consistent non-familiar navigation it's been possible to load a custom swf for years losing all the usual navigation and accessibility and a number of people on the list have clearly customised and removed some of the standard buttons/options. The connectors aren't just about navigation between pages in an LO and for instance the hotpot image connector provides extremely useful functionality without changing page navigation at all. In terms of difficult page types to learn most of the connectors are the same as existing page types with some added options. In my experience supporting lots of people new to or familiar with XOT the connectors won't provide a barrier or problem to those who want to achieve the functionality they provide. Others will simply ignore them just like they do some of the other page types that have been in place for ages. Just my somewhat repeated thoughts. Ron From: xerte-dev-bounces at lists.nottingham.ac.uk [mailto:xerte-dev-bounces at lists.nottingham.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Kemp Johnathan
Sent: 29 October 2012 17:57
To: For Xerte technical developers
Subject: [Xerte-dev] Re: [Xerte] Re: plain text connector page problem in XOT What we must avoid is a situation where people try and build content and then give up because it just doesn't work quite right, and have then essentially wasted their time. This is an important principle for toolkits. Then maybe the connector pages should be withdrawn from the XOT release until we have a common approach to the pages and resolved the navigation options. There is a danger that the solution implemented may be difficult to implement with full backward compatibility, or that achieving backward compatibility will compromise the pages by building in extra functionality that is not essential to the pages functioning with the new modifications. However I can't finalise the Connector pages until we reach a consensus and any engine based features have been implemented. Kind regards Johnathan On 29 October 2012 17:38, Dave Burnett <d_b_burnett at hotmail.com> wrote:>What XOT app store? A mythological place where custom templates can be made available for general use. >I thought we had reached a point where we were going to provide the project author with an option to implement an historic back button which would display a different logo to that of the linear back button. And I thought the counterpoint was still that it was adding a layer of complexity inimical to Xerte's design philosophy of KISS.That's why I was suggesting the alternate availability for those authors who are sure enough of themselves and their target to be confident of their effect. And I stand to be corrected, but I believe Julian has been resistant from the beginning of including anything in the standard release that is not completely intuitive to a basic level user, both author and reader.And from the fact that the navigation issue has now been around the track quite a number of times without clear resolution indicates, to me at least, that it is too complex for standard Xerte. Johnathan, I feel with you, and I am not just saying that.Julian will attest, as I peppered him questions at the time, that I spent about 6 solid months building an Authorware to Xerte conversion tool.Now I too see in black and white that that tool is now pretty much a museum piece.:-/ Dave
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 16:34:23 +0000
From: johnathan.kemp at ntlworld.com
To: xerte-dev at lists.nottingham.ac.uk
Subject: [Xerte-dev] Re: [Xerte] Re: plain text connector page problem in XOTWhat XOT app store? I thought we had reached a point where we were going to provide the project author with an option to implement an historic back button which would display a different logo to that of the linear back button. Without an historic back button the connector pages are going to be significantly compromised when used with the intention of setting up routes through a project. Kind regards Johnathan On 29 October 2012 15:45, Dave Burnett <d_b_burnett at hotmail.com> wrote: "an historic back button might be made available." Perhaps this is better left as a bespoke version available from the "XOT app store"?Having just put together a custom template, I can see that it is perfect for the clients intended usage, but would not make much sense as a standard XOT component. Dave Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 15:33:58 +0000
From: johnathan.kemp at ntlworld.com
To: xerte-dev at lists.nottingham.ac.uk
Subject: [Xerte-dev] Re: [Xerte] Re: plain text connector page problem in XOTWith respect to the Connector pages I guess I don't know whether I am coming or going :-( Just before you went on leave we have had some discussions regarding finalising how the navigation options should work and how an historic back button might be made available. Today there is discussion about changing the way Page ID usage might work. I had originally planned to do the following regarding the Connector pages and then call it a day on rlm development until I could take a look at HTML5 and see if I could get my head around it in a XOT context.Tidy up the navigation options for the connector pages once a preferred solution had been agreedcreate a quiz connector page;add some control to the position of the pop up in the Hotspot Image ConnectorAdd support for image display on the Scenario Connector when you examined a prop2 is almost done, 3 is done. I have not posted the changes as until 1 is completed all the models will be subject to change. Perhaps if we can resolve the current discussions regarding how the connectors should work I can get the above finished and then leave any further work to HTML5 versions. Kind regards Johnathan On 29 October 2012 15:12, Julian Tenney <Julian.Tenney at nottingham.ac.uk> wrote:And I understand that having put all the work in over the last year, the current state of the world is frustrating.
I would say that there is still work to do around how we implement the connectors in the GHTML5 stuff, and how we make them easy to use, and that the interface works as expected for end users in the various situations.
I think from our point of view it would be helpful if the number of templates didn’t grow massively until we reach that parity point between the old and the new, but appreciate people will have particular problems to solve that might need new page types (including us).
I have wondered, aloud at times, about building a new version of a lower level tool like Xerte, but one that produces HTML5 output. I think it would be possible to get close. Personally I wouldn’t want to support the .rlo file format by crunching it into HTML5 because there are some serious shortcomings in that that could be done better, and I’m not everyone grasps the flow-line thing, but something similar, giving a simple set of components to use to create content from. If you think about it most of the xerte icons are now available in HTML5:
<script>
<img>
<p>
<audio>
<video>
<div>
And others can be done quite easily with jquery / jqueryUI components. See the framework example I put together.
The thing that stops me is I really do not know if anyone would use it. The lesson from the last seven years is that there really aren’t that many programming content developers out there (it’s always surprised me that most Learning Technologists don’t code but there you go). Developers already have tools. I’ve come to the conclusion that if you’re building tools, you are not building tools for developers (they already exist), the people who need tools are the non-techs.
From: xerte-dev-bounces at lists.nottingham.ac.uk [mailto:xerte-dev-bounces at lists.nottingham.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Kemp Johnathan
Sent: 29 October 2012 14:50
To: For Xerte technical developersSubject: [Xerte-dev] Re: [Xerte] Re: plain text connector page problem in XOT I can understand where you are coming from in this. In the absence of any way of using the current .rlm page model files as a means of defining both for flash and html5 delivery the rlm files are obsolete and the developer friendliness of the Xerte desktop is history.. Given this situation it seems to me that any further work on rlm based pages is probably a waste of time. Does it make sense to work now on improving how the Connector pages work, or to instead seek to duplicate what we currently have in HTML5? Then once there is a working set of pages look for potential improvements. Kind regards Johnathan On 29 October 2012 14:18, Julian Tenney <Julian.Tenney at nottingham.ac.uk> wrote:[moved from the xerte list]So here is the problem for us. We (Nottingham) don’t have any interest in supporting, or developing standalone Xerte anymore. From our point of view, very few people use it, and it’s flash, and is dead or dying. I cannot justify putting our time and effort myself into supporting the old stuff, and I think that if we try and keep the two things running we are just going to make a big mess. At the very least, it makes problems much more complicated. At some point, we need to let the standalone Xerte die, and I’m at that point. The future for me is with toolkits, we saw that at the event a couple of weeks ago when you asked ‘how many people use standalone xerte?’. It was hardly any, and they are almost all using templates anyway, and could do that on an xampp install of toolkits. Debate it or not, Nottingham’s position is not to put any time into the standalone / flash stuff anymore. From: xerte-bounces at lists.nottingham.ac.uk [mailto:xerte-bounces at lists.nottingham.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Kemp Johnathan
Sent: 29 October 2012 12:01
To: Xerte discussion list
Subject: [Xerte] Re: plain text connector page problem in XOT The source of the list of pages in a project is different for Xerte projects and for XOT or Page Templates projects.
XOT contains the data for all the pages in the project in a single .xml file so the connector pages access the page ID by
extXML.firstChild.childNodes[i].attributes.pageID
In desktop Xerte pages projects each page has its own separate xml file. Xerte builds an array rootIcon.pages from which the page data can be accessed e.g.
rootIcon.pages[i].extXML.firstChild.childNodes[0].attributes.pageIDThe building of the array takes place at run time and has not completed by the time the rootIcon.onInit event is broadcast. So the data is not available to the xwd file to be able to offer a list of pages. However in desktop Xerte Julian modified the engine so that on changing the page title i.e. name attribute in the page's xwd form this value was transferred to the associated page icon's name attribute written in the .rlo file. So in desktop Xerte the source of the page names would have to be the rlo file. Is it doable that the engine could be coded so that one solution can work in the xwd forms for the pages and for the page models, irrespective of them residing in Xerte or XOT? Kind regards Johnathan Kind regards Johnathan On 29 October 2012 11:33, Julian Tenney <Julian.Tenney at nottingham.ac.uk> wrote:I can code it, the engine needs to do it, based on that type in .xwd <attName type=”pageList” label=”targetPage” …etc…> Then the wizard needs to build the list based on the data on the tree, and show the user page titles to choose from. When one is selected it needs to generate an ID if one doesn’t exist on the target page, and then link to that. I think that would work? I think also the user could screw it up by changing the ID later and breaking the link: the generated ID would be targ12398637562 or something like that, it would be better to prompt the user to create a friendly one if one didn’t exist. From: xerte-bounces at lists.nottingham.ac.uk [mailto:xerte-bounces at lists.nottingham.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Pat Lockley
Sent: 29 October 2012 10:52
To: Xerte discussion list
Subject: [Xerte] Re: plain text connector page problem in XOT Strikes me it better to offer a choice of valid options than to try to validate later on? No idea how to code it though Of course you could go crazy and connect to pages in other projects....
On 29 Oct 2012, at 10:43, Julian Tenney <Julian.Tenney at nottingham.ac.uk> wrote:Good idea. That would require some work in the engine, and a type in the xwd file of ‘pageList’. For attributes labelled as such, the engine would then present the drop down, and could generate IDs automagically if they didn’t exist… From: xerte-bounces at lists.nottingham.ac.uk [mailto:xerte-bounces at lists.nottingham.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Pat Lockley
Sent: 29 October 2012 10:34
To: Xerte discussion list
Subject: [Xerte] Re: plain text connector page problem in XOT Why not provide a drop down list of pages?
On 29 Oct 2012, at 10:30, Kemp Johnathan <johnathan.kemp at ntlworld.com> wrote:One problem may be that people are failing to locate the documentation that supports the Connector pages. Which does not surprise me as at the moment the only place I know they are accessible from is either the help folder of a desktop Xerte install, or from the SVN. It should be possible to check for page ID and then for page "title". When you say "page title" are you referring to the xml attribute "name" ? In desktop Xerte there is both a "name" and a "title" attribute but in XOT the label "Page Title" is used to refer to the attribute "name". So for Xerte use which would you want it to be? I am concerned that this approach may instead complicate things. By using only Page IDs for connections projects retain a consistency of approach and the connections are safe from side effects resulting from the renaming (retitling) of a page. Page IDs are free from having to do duty as a page title and so can reflect the logical structure of the connections. Perhaps an alternative solution is to include an info statement to remind people to set a page ID for their destination page. Kind regards Johnathan On 29 October 2012 09:35, Julian Tenney <Julian.Tenney at nottingham.ac.uk> wrote:People are missing the need to create a page ID? Is that the root cause of the problem here? I’ve wondered if the navigation stuff should use either the page title or the page ID? I’ve had feedback from people that the ID makes things too complicated / is easy to miss etc. If the code looked first for an ID, and if found, navigated to that, but if not found, it then checked the page titles, and if found, navigated to that, it would catch both situations? We have got to keep the ‘keep it simple’ mantra in mind here. Andy is an experienced user, and this should be a simple task. This tells me something could be improved. From: xerte-bounces at lists.nottingham.ac.uk [mailto:xerte-bounces at lists.nottingham.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Kemp Johnathan
Sent: 27 October 2012 10:38
To: Xerte discussion list
Subject: [Xerte] Re: plain text connector page problem in XOT In principle it is possible to add this functionality to any page that has a text block. However this raises the question of when is a connector page not a connector page. For you could end up potentially with a list of connector pages that duplicated most of the existing pages. I would be personally inclined to treat the ability to link from text as in the Plain Text Connector Page as something that is not really a "Connector Page" if we ever went down the route of making this facility available to all text blocks. Almost all the other Connector pages offer facilities to control the navigation options of the destination page, a feature not offered when making a text based connection. I think the concept of connector pages is still in its infancy. There is a bit of tidying up that I am working with Julian on, to improve the options regarding navigation and setting navigation for destination pages. Then I think it will be worth waiting a while and seeing what the take up of the Connector pages is and getting a feel for how people use them. There is also the major issue of HTML5. Until I am clearer about the implications of converting existing Connector pages to HTML5 I am rather loathe to expand the range of Connector pages available. Kind regards Johnathan On 26 October 2012 16:32, Davidson, Andrew <Andrew.Davidson at warwick.ac.uk> wrote:Thanks Johnathan – very helpful. Yes, it was a very simple solution – Dave showed me that I wasn’t inserting a page id where it was needed. Makes sense now but in the instruction I only could see about copying and pasting text with the page id – anyway, it’s a great addition for Xerte Online Toolkits and I wonder if it will be possible to add this function to other page types in XOT such as a page with graphics and text or a page with video and text. Best Andy From: xerte-bounces at lists.nottingham.ac.uk [mailto:xerte-bounces at lists.nottingham.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Kemp Johnathan
Sent: 26 October 2012 16:27
To: Xerte discussion list
Subject: [Xerte] Re: plain text connector page problem in XOT You have two ways to use the Page Models in Xerte 2.18 desktop. I hope that soon we will be able to improve the File / New menu so that all the options for creating a the different project types are listed there. However currently... If you want a page templates type project i.e. a toolkits style project then do Pages / Create Template Project from Pages. Add pages in the same way as normal for Page Templates or XOT projects. If you want to use the new Pages type project that gives full access to the page models and also the editing environment then do Pages / Create New Page Project Add pages by selecting the "Interface" element in the project tree and then select the page type that you want to add from the range of page type folders that you will find off the Pages Menu. As to how to duplicate the problem that Andrew is experiencing, I am not sure since I am not sure what the cause of the problem is. It may be as simple as not having specified a page ID for the destination page. Kind regards Johnathan On 25 October 2012 17:19, Dave Burnett <d_b_burnett at hotmail.com> wrote:Johnathan, how would one go about recreating Andy's situation in 2.18 desktop? Thnx,Dave Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2012 17:13:52 +0100From: johnathan.kemp at ntlworld.comTo: xerte at lists.nottingham.ac.uk
Subject: [Xerte] Re: plain text connector page problem in XOT The link to your project is not much help as I can't access the values you have entered into the form for the page. If you take a look at the learning object you should find it has an optional property of "Add Author Support". Add this attribute to your learning object and ensure the check box is ticked. Then play your project once more and try your hyperlink. You should see a message displayed "Page ID: somePageID could not be found in this project" Where "somePageID" will be the pageID you have specified in your link. Then check the destination page to ensure that you have given it an optional attribute of "Page ID" and that you have set the Page ID attribute to the value you have used in your link. That should sort it. Kind regards Johnathan On 25 October 2012 15:34, Davidson, Andrew <Andrew.Davidson at warwick.ac.uk> wrote:Hi
I am trying to use the plain text connector page in XOT but for some reason I can’t get the link to work – http://xerte.warwick.ac.uk/play_116
it highlights as a link on page 3 but does not link back to page 2. Here is the code I entered as a hyperlink
asfunction:_level0.engine.fnTextCon,page2
any ideas?
Thanks.
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