[Syrphidae] Re: PDF request - Sommaggio 2001

Tue Jan 12 10:39:06 GMT 2016

Dear all!

When I read through the weak or non existent traits mentioned by a few  
of you, the idea or question comes to my mind if those Dasysyrphus  
species with confusing inter- and intraspecific variations mentioned  
before maybe exhibit hybridisations, and we witness a process of  
speciation. If so, all efforts to destile "true" species out of the  
material present could in my opinion become near to impossible. I  
don't have experience in molecular methods, maybe there is a way, for  
which we have to look even deeper into sequencing (and after getting  
back results define morphological features to discern the species).
Maybe the venustus-complex comprises of only one species with a very  
broad variety, maybe there are x cryptic species hidden inside.

Thanks for the discussion!

Stefan

Zitat von Martin Hauser <phycus at gmail.com>:

> Locke (2013), who did an enormous amount of sequencing combined with
> morphology, shows that even with a lot of new tools, the genus Dasysyrphus
> can not be completely solved. And she focused on the New World species....
> But if somebody wants to attack this genus again, in a joint effort, I am
> willing to give material (Nearctic and East Palaearctic, mainly South
> Korea), but I don't want to be part of the project (too many other things
> to solve)...
> Cheers
> Martin
>
> On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 1:54 PM, Robert ?óralski <robert at insects.pl> wrote:
>
>> Hello Frank,
>>
>> I'd be glad to join current efforts and share concepts and data for
>> Dasysyprhus, especially that the mess we have in the genus does not provide
>> a safe bed for even simple faunistic works for any of us. But not sure in
>> the scope of specific Dasysyrphus problems I can add anything super smart.
>> The main reason is that despite years of tries, none was able to resolve
>> some basic problems of this genus in Palearctic. Intraspecific variability
>> and borders of some common known/named species has to be clarified first
>> (if possible) and some basic doubts resolved (e.g. what exactly D.
>> lenensis, D. postclaviger, D. hilaris and D. venustus is) to let us all
>> understand and _see_ species properly. Then the complete revision of the
>> material (incl. types) and names stabilization makes any sense. For sure
>> new tools are now available (genetics, wings morphometry) to test
>> hypothesis.
>>
>> You know that similar problems are still open in Eupeodes, Pipiza,
>> Melanostoma, Xanthogramma, some Cheilosia etc. ;)
>>
>> To clarify, I am personally not a big fan of creating new names if that is
>> not really needed, especially in situation the complex ("venustus" we
>> discuss in this case) has characters between "species" overlapping, the
>> difference in genitalia not obvious/visible, and some darker specimens low
>> in number exists (especially from mountain and northern areas) that does
>> not help in clarification/stabilization of the whole "group". I think we
>> should keep on trying (that is just the beauty of science) and discuss as
>> much as possible rather than sit in silence. +1 for the proposed approach.
>> I am personally afraid Dasysyrphus cannot be resolved "at once" (as one
>> revision).
>>
>> Robert
>>
>>
>>
>> 2016-01-11 9:16 GMT+01:00 Frank Dziock <dziock at htw-dresden.de>:
>>
>>>
>>> Hi Steven and others,
>>>
>>> very nice to see that Dasysyrphus is still en vogue ;-)
>>>
>>> Thinking from the hoverfly community perspective, it would be very good,
>>> if the people working on Dasysyrphus (Steven, Robert, Dieter, Jeff and
>>> surely many others) could make a joint effort.
>>>
>>> Please do not decribe single "new" Dasysyrphus species. Please try to
>>> achieve a thorough revision of at least the Western Palaearctic area
>>> (Holarctic would be better, though ;-)).
>>>
>>> Otherwise I fear we would have to deal with a mess of old names, new
>>> names, synonyms etc. for many years. We already had that in some other
>>> genera, and I think it would be time to join forces and prevent  
>>> such things.
>>>
>>> All the best and good chance,
>>>
>>> Frank
>>>
>>> P.S.: Ximo, the Chrysotoxum paper is in the attachment
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Am 10.01.2016 um 10:43 schrieb Steven Falk:
>>>
>>> Its definitely one taxa Robert, variation in stigma colour etc is just
>>> down to lighting conditions and mode of photography. All material has
>>> yellow bars reaching the side margin. But I've been recording 'venusta' for
>>> years (I've been recording syrphids since 1975) and am prettyu good at
>>> spotting when something is not right - as is the case here. I'll check the
>>> ventral side when I get a moment,
>>>
>>> Steven
>>>
>>> Steven Falk
>>> Entomologist-Artist-Photographer
>>> <http://www.stevenfalk.co.uk/>www.stevenfalk.co.uk
>>> mobile: 0781 555 7263
>>>
>>> Help Our Bees: <http://www.stevenfalk.co.uk/help-our-bees>
>>> http://www.stevenfalk.co.uk/help-our-bees
>>>
>>> Flickr Image library at:
>>> <http://www.flickr.com/photos/63075200@N07/collections/>
>>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/63075200@N07/collections/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>> *From:* syrphidae-bounces at lists.nottingham.ac.uk [
>>> mailto:syrphidae-bounces at lists.nottingham.ac.uk
>>> <syrphidae-bounces at lists.nottingham.ac.uk>] *On Behalf Of *Robert
>>> Zóralski
>>> *Sent:* 09 January 2016 21:39
>>> *To:* Hoverfly discussion list
>>> *Subject:* [Syrphidae] Re: PDF request - Sommaggio 2001
>>>
>>> To supplement previous email. It is not obvious from pictures if the
>>> first dark male has bands on tergites reaching sides or not. In case it is
>>> small specimen and sides not reaching - good candidate for D. nigritarsis.
>>> I would not be surprise if you have this species in northern Scotland.
>>>
>>> Robert
>>>
>>> 2016-01-09 22:25 GMT+01:00 Robert ?óralski <robert at insects.pl>:
>>>
>>>> Hi Steven,
>>>>
>>>> Depending on what you believe D. venustus is... ;)
>>>>
>>>> Nothing sure base on pictures, but I do not think you show one species
>>>> under the link. I mean the last pictures of the female with yellowish
>>>> pterostigma, yellow hind tibiae and fuzzy dusting on frons is something
>>>> different the first the pair (dark males and female presented at the
>>>> beginning of the gallery).
>>>>
>>>> Do you have any picture of ventral side of those specimens? Is that
>>>> narrow equally broad band (in females only) or rather triangle-like dark
>>>> spots in both sexes?
>>>>
>>>> Cheers
>>>> Robert
>>>>
>>>> 2016-01-08 18:19 GMT+01:00 Steven Falk < <steven at sfalk.wanadoo.co.uk>
>>>> steven at sfalk.wanadoo.co.uk>:
>>>>
>>>>> Afraid not Ximo, but whilst we are talking Syrphini, I'm pretty sure
>>>>> I've got a new (at least to Britain) *Dasysyrphus *that is very close
>>>>> to *venustus* (alongside which it was flying). It averages darker,
>>>>> smaller, narrow bands on the tergites, male frons much darker,  
>>>>> female frons
>>>>> with much smaller dust spots. It was from Scottsih native pine wood areas
>>>>> in late May-early June 2013, when spring was delayed by 4-5 weeks (and*
>>>>> Salix* was still in blossom!). Martin Speight has already provided
>>>>> some info, but interested to hear what others think. See this link for
>>>>> images:
>>>>> <https://www.flickr.com/photos/63075200@N07/sets/72157634414191644/>
>>>>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/63075200@N07/sets/72157634414191644/
>>>>>
>>>>> All the best,
>>>>>
>>>>> Steven
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Steven Falk
>>>>> Entomologist-Artist-Photographer
>>>>> <http://www.stevenfalk.co.uk/>www.stevenfalk.co.uk
>>>>> mobile: 0781 555 7263
>>>>>
>>>>> Help Our Bees: http://www.stevenfalk.co.uk/help-our-bees
>>>>>
>>>>> Flickr Image library at:
>>>>> <http://www.flickr.com/photos/63075200@N07/collections/>
>>>>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/63075200@N07/collections/
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>> *From:* syrphidae-bounces at lists.nottingham.ac.uk [mailto:
>>>>> syrphidae-bounces at lists.nottingham.ac.uk] *On Behalf Of *ximo mengual
>>>>> sanchis
>>>>> *Sent:* 08 January 2016 16:20
>>>>> *To:* Hoverfly discussion list
>>>>> *Subject:* [Syrphidae] PDF request - Sommaggio 2001
>>>>>
>>>>> Dear all,
>>>>>
>>>>> Does someone has a pdf of the following paper?
>>>>>
>>>>> Sommaggio, D. 2001. The species of the genus Chrysotoxum Meigen, 1822
>>>>> (Diptera, Syrphidae) described by Giglio Tos. -Bollettino Museo Regionale
>>>>> di Scienze Naturali, Torino, 18: 115-127.
>>>>>
>>>>> I have seen two publication years in the literature: 2000 and 2001.
>>>>>
>>>>> Many thanks!
>>>>>
>>>>> Ximo
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ********************************************************
>>>>> Dr. Ximo Mengual
>>>>> Head of the Diptera Section
>>>>> Stiftung Zoologisches Forschungsmuseum Alexander Koenig
>>>>> Leibniz-Institut für Biodiversität der Tiere
>>>>> Adenauerallee 160
>>>>> D-53113  Bonn, Germany
>>>>> Phone: 0049 (0)228 9122 292
>>>>> ZFMK web <https://www.zfmk.de/en/zfmk/ximo-mengual>
>>>>> <http://entomology.si.edu/StaffPages/MengualJ.html>
>>>>> <https://www.bolgermany.de/>https://www.bolgermany.de/ |
>>>>> <http://syrphidae.lifedesks.org/>http://syrphidae.lifedesks.org/
>>>>>
>>>>>
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>
>
> --
> Dr. Martin Hauser
> Senior Insect Biosystematist
> California Department of Food and Agriculture
> Plant Pest Diagnostics Branch
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